I still like Aliens as a film more than Alien, but I think the first Xeno will forever be the perfect example of what these creatures should be. And the more we talk about what role genders play with this creature, the more I actually dislike Cameron for introducing the Queen. As a fan, this is really conflicting, because at the same time, I still think Queens were one of the more brilliant moves if we ever had to take one. I mean, we could have just gone on to clones... which we did. (On a side note, I still think Call and all those characters deserved a better movie, because I actually liked them.)

Even Giger (allegedly) adored the Queen's design. I think one of the worst things about the Queen is the effect she has on the drone: the bigger fish is more dangerous than the smaller one.

There was also the fact that there were more Xenos (Warriors, even) and they dropped like flies hours before the introduction of the Queen, which I think they could have handled better.

Edit: @DD: Which is exactly why I've always been a firm believer in drones morphing into Queens. Maybe if it were canon, they would ALL be the bigger fish.

On the topic of Aliens-

Queens were NOT the bad part. The shitty part (yes it was shitty) was that the aliens poped like balloons. That went strait into the heart of what's wrong with avp.

The Queen gave Aliens a society. That made them less scary. Aliens was an action movie.

Are we not though still projecting gender roles onto the Queen simply because she is the birth giver for the species. Speaking from a relative point the species are close to being genderless. The whole idea is that Cameron took the hive structure of bees or ants and overlayed it on to the xeno's. Automatically we are carrying a gender identity when we probably shouldn't.

I mean we cant really define a female of the species because we don't have two seperate determines for sex. WE are assigning it based on what we think the gender or sex a Queen is. If there is no male or female in a species it seems like folly to automatically assign "Birth giver = Female" onto it.Because of that I kinda agree with PREDATOR. The first film removes any identifying markers from what the creature is, it is totally alien to us. The only thing we know is that it more or less rapes people and from that signifier our minds start to project all sorts of horror. 'Aliens' removed that and replaced with a more defined structure. Giving the species a name, showing how it reproduces (kinda) and transplanting a hive like structure. The creature is no longer a force of nature but a thing. It puts the creature within a determinable boundry that we can control. We can predict how it will behave.

I mean we can fight and beat a thing....unless it's John Carpenter's Thing then maybe not.

@Doc: Some of the early Aliens comics tried to deal with that by introducing an element of unpredictability into it. The government has "official" lifespans/gestation times for facehuggings/chestburstings that they start to screen people by... And then the times start switching up on them. The bursters start bursting earlier or later as needed. It adds a more unpredictable quality to them, because suddenly they're just as lethal in groups as they are alone.

I agree that within the fiction, the Queen isn't actually female because Aliens are basically genderless. Within the real world, though, it HAD to be called a Queen for the themes of Aliens to work.

@DD but that's exactly what I'm saying, it takes the concept and makes it more manageable for the audience which is fine but I kinda would like to have seen more alien films work off that more unconfined terror that the first film had. I think that's part of the reason 'Alien 3' (which I love) failed to gain an audience. It tried to go back a step in it's themes and that's not what people wanted at all.

'Aliens' had to use this Queen example to get it's themes across but it took something away from the beast which sadly is because we project our human gender issues on to fictional monsters.

I was reading a few sources about the identity of the Predator god Cetanu (one of which even includes which words are fan-made), and realized that Cetanu is actually a goddess. I think Cetanu being a woman would be credible since females are generally regarded as the superior sex - their focus would be on goddesses, not gods. For the sake of this argument, let's say they probably treasure women - not in an objective way, but you know what I mean.

This also sheds some light on why they think so lowly of Predaliens and Xenomorphs in general: in this thread, we've already established that the Alien films, with its female themes, are all about scaring men. They probably see Xenomorphs as huge insults to natural reproduction (and women by extension), and this goes further with Predaliens and Queens because one is a mockery of their very race and the other is the one that actually reproduces.

The one thing that doesn't make any sense to me, though, is that Cetanu supposedly takes the form of a Queen. Maybe it's because she's the Goddess of Death?

Any links to gaia are strictly forbidden Bloo, nor would I consider it a reputable source of predator based information. SHAME ON YOU!

Besides my little rant ^. Centanu and anything concerning that is not mentioned in the movies, which is what we've all accepted to be the only true canon for any of this stuff we're discussing. (Hopefully I'm making sense with this, I apologize but I'm drunk posting here and trying to do my best to be coherent.) The idea for the Centanu turning into or being a Queen just doesn't make sense, fact is and I hate to admit this but the Predator and Alien franchises shouldn't have cross paths on the movie screens, comics awesome. However the movies didn't do anything justice and just weaked both franchises.


I agree with doc, Aliens was a good movie, but it did weaken elements of the aliens.

While I agree that places like that are just awful (2/3 of DeviantArt being the worst offender), the other source had the same information, so I think I used my pass at the right time.

Anyway, yeah you're right, this is strictly canon information, I just thought it was interesting that Cetanu is actually a goddess.

it is an interesting idea to ponder. Though that said can we be totally sure that the Preds we have seen on screen are not actually females themselves? I mean never really bought the whole non-cannon "Females are bigger and stronger" thing because it makes no sense from a biological or evolutionary stand point. Can it happen, yes there are plenty of real world examples but considering the Yuatja culture has at the least a heavy sect or hunters and warriors it wouldnt make sense for the males to be the ones out there killing things.

I made a poor attempt at explaining this earlier, but couldn't find a good way to say it, so thank you, I literally could not have said it better myself.

You're going to wanna punch me for saying this, but I usually "hand wave" details like that with the excuse "they're aliens."

If you wanted me to explain myself slightly better, I always think about how female lions do the hunting while they're supposed to be the inferior gender.

Of course, that's all for survival while Predators hunt for sport, but I know a lot less about the politics of Yautja society than I do Xenomorph hive structure.

As I recall, if a male predator is very successful he might mate with up to twenty females in a single mating season, this suggests that the majority of females are not treated as equals. Its kinda like game of thrones except more upfront with the stabbing.

^ But the same sources that say that say the females are bigger.

@Bloo: I was gonna bring up the lion thing-it's not just that females are considered weaker, but (as I understand it) they ARE physically weaker. Males by all rights should trample females physically, yet they basically lay around all day while the females do the hunting.

@Doc: I saw a related theory that the "Beserkers" from Predators were females. That would, if nothing else, explain a hell of a lot.

^I haven't even considered that before. I really like that.

It's kinda funny how easily I can accept the Berserkers being stronger and smarter if they're women when a few pages back, I was absolutely against the notion of a King Alien having to be stronger than a Queen. I don't know if that's me being biased or if it's just because Berserkers being female would support the "females are tougher than males" theory, whereas Kings have no basis and place at all.

I think it's telling that the comics-which introduced giant reptiles grilling and eating facehuggers for BBQ, cigar-loving robot Xenos, super-queens, and aquatic xenos (among other weirdness)-refused to allow a greater male counterpart to the Queen. The only time you get it is in Rogue, and the whole point of that one was to point out that the "male" was not a normal part of the life cycle, weaker than the Queen, and in fact wouldn't work within the hive structure.

There is only one way we can find out what a female predator looks like.

Rule 34.

In a universe with hunting monsters does it matter what a female looks like? Maybe the predators don't have a female!

Krio, seeing as this is a forum which is about discussing different aspects of these monsters, talking about how gender works with them is part of what we do. Although you do bring up a good point, perhaps the predators are asexual? Wouldn't that be interesting?

^I think that would be very interesting

I think that the predators are not male or female to start with. Maybe the creators of the predator didn't want to make us fuck our minds up with the question wich is why they never showed one? Maybe it is already stated that predators are none or both of the 2? I think they are none or both male and female.