EDIT: While I was typing this, Dronehive made a much, much better post.

(OK, hopefully this post will be more coherent than the last mess. Feel free to correct me if I misquote you here)

Yeah, but if gender should have no effect on someone's identity... Well, isn't that the whole point trans people are making? We shouldn't apply narrow biological labels to people's mind/identity. If being male or female doesn't mean anything, wouldn't you agree that concepts like gendered clothing/toys/bathrooms/etc. shouldn't exist? If it's all in our heads anyway, what difference does it make if, for example, a man wears a dress and acts in a "feminine" way?

I disagree that it's all in our heads, though. If it were, people could be raised as the wrong gender with absolutely no problem, which, as the case of David Reimer seems to demonstrate, doesn't work terribly well. Dude was a MAN. His circumcision went south, so his parents (on the advice of a fucking quack) got him gender reassignment surgery. He had a vagina, was raised as a girl, dressed like a girl, etc.

Complete fucking disaster. Surgery didn't work, hormones didn't work, raising him as a female didn't work, NOTHING worked. He was male, and nothing anyone did could change that. He was suicidal by age 13. I mean, doesn't this suggest there's more to sex and gender than some delusion?

To continue the tree analogy, it's like saying "Goddamnit, this apple tree won't grow correctly. Help me trim it so it looks like an apple tree."

"I think that's an orange tree, dude."

"No, no, it's an apple tree. It's apples are just fucked up."

"Those are oranges. They're fucking orange."

"SO PAINT THEM RED."

^That was the best TDLR of every good argument ever.

@DH

>Just as color, ethnicity, and language are "essential" to your being, so is gender.

I completely disagree with pairing colour with ethnicity and language. Colour is an element of the real, ethnicity and language are elements of the human. Colour would still exist without people, ethnicity and language would not and while ethnicity and language have a major influence on the development of a personality, colour should have none. I know your argument is "but that's not how it is in today's world" and I don't give a fuck how it is in today's world, because, as I've noted several times, I am talking about the distant future.

>Sexual identity is tangible, not in the physical body, but rather in the behaviors of the endocrine system.

The endocrine system is part of the physical body, I would appreciate it if you didn't start your arguments with a flawed premise. I know what you're saying, that the subconscious regulates bodily functions and that the subconscious is part of your self, but I disagree with that. When it comes to humans, I distinguish the conscious as being the person/individual/sapience and the subconscious as being the collection of instincts that are necessary for the body to function. Both influence each other and are influenced by outside factors, but would be able to function separately if it were possible, like animals function without an active, complex sapience, but with a very complex and active set of instincts. And a person without a body that lives in a society where gender is not a factor would not develop a gender identity.

@DD

"Yeah, but if gender should have no effect on someone's identity... Well, isn't that the whole point trans people are making? We shouldn't apply narrow biological labels to people's mind/identity. If being male or female doesn't mean anything, wouldn't you agree that concepts like gendered clothing/toys/bathrooms/etc. shouldn't exist? If it's all in our heads anyway, what difference does it make if, for example, a man wears a dress and acts in a "feminine" way?"

Yeah, that's the whole point I'm making. I GET that you're saying that we're a product of our society and that since in this society gender is presented as being important, it makes people cling to it as if it were a valuable part of their identities, but I'm talking about an ideal situation as a possible future. I'm pretty sure we're not contradicting each other, we're just talking about different theoretical situations.

"I disagree that it's all in our heads, though."

Yeah, I'm saying it's all in our bodies. I think the other aspect of my argument that you guys are missing is that I'm not talking about the actual genders that humans, as animals, can have physically. Identifying as either male, female, both or neither are all understandable choices, given that it has been a part of the physical programming of living creatures since long before humans existed and we are born with a combination of those options. What I'm saying is that any other option is simply made up and unhealthy for both the mind and the body. It's like adding a 3 to a 01 language and expecting it to work without previously teaching the computer what the fuck a 3 even is. Even though you convince yourself that your gender is "wall" enough that your body starts to sweat paint, you're still not going to be a healthy person, because your body isn't made to function with the "wall" input and your mind has absolutely no use for the gender what-so-ever. It is simply a caprice. You can convince your subconscious that you are anything, because the conscious mind, at least in humans, is infinitely stronger than the subconscious. BUT so can any outside factor, such as social pressure, or trauma, or anything that lasts long enough really.

And your tree analogy is completely different to what I was saying. I was talking about maintaining the posture of the sapling so that it can continue to grow and not fall over on its own weight and wither. It doesn't matter if it's an apple tree, orange tree, or a fur tree. They're all trees and all of them do the same physical functions, but if the tree were suddenly sapient and convinced that it had to grow downward because society has been mean to it and it needs to feel unique, and then everyone were all like "oh wow you're growing the other way, I completely support you in your decision!" then it would eventually become unable to develop enough leaves to stay alive.

@DW

Okay, perhaps physical was not a good term.

It isn't visible to the general public. It's not "written on your face", I guess.

Anyway, I understand what you mean. However, note that your entire argument rests on the transgender people being "special snowflake" assholes. Just saying.

That is not at all what my argument rests on. You should also read the part addressed to DD if you haven't already. And if you have, read it again. Which reminds me, DD, if you ever have to change your username for whatever reason, you should add a word that starts with P in the beginning of it, so we can call you PDD.

"PDD"

AMAZING.

@DH: Oh yeah, I'm gonna watch all those later. I'll give you a full (and more accurate) opinion on Elfen Lied when I finish it. I do want to like it, but so far it's just not doing anything for me.

Someone hid my barbeque sauce... heads are about to start rolling because I don't have my barbeque sauce for my sandwich, and I haven't eaten anything today... and I am not a very nice person when I haven't had protein....


Edit: I found it, now I can eat my sandwich so I don't kill anybody.

@DW: WELL I LOOK GOOD IN A DRESS, SO THERE.

In all seriousness, this is really interesting. I want to make sure I understand your argument, so I'm gonna reread it a few times before responding, just so I don't stick my foot in my mouth. But this is good, probably the most interesting discussion on this site in years.

IN THE MEANTIME, DICK JOKES.

^WOULD YOU LIKE SOME SPECIAL SAUCE WITH THAT ORDER OF DICK JOKES, GOOD SIR? I'M SURE WE COULD PUMP SOME OUT FOR YOU. WE ALSO HAVE A SPECIAL ON SAUSAGES TODAY, BUY ONE GET MINE.

I don't like dick but i like dudes.

Help me internet.

^ So you are asexualy romantically atracted to men? Not uncommon.

@DW

After rereading your argument as a whole, especially that last bit, i't makes much more scene and I can say that I agree with you. Like, I have nothing else to say, unless anyone else wants to contribute more.

Quick question though- how do you feel about nongendered people?(aka people who don't give a shit about gender roles or the fact that they have a variety of genitals)

@Bloo

Yeah, I DO remember saying it wasn't for everyone. Then again, I just thought that if anyone here should see it, it would have to be you.

(Anyway, saying it again, everyone watch Higurashi no Naku Koro ni like now so we can all have a big ass discussion about how fucking terrifying and awesome it was. We should have like a thread kinda like a book club where we all watch the same show and discuss it. That would be cool.)

I like vaginas but not girls.


Jk, I'm asexual, anyways, back to the Dick Jokes.


WANNA TASTE MY HOTDOG?!?!?!?!? IT HAS MAYO FILLING!!!

^No I only eat bratwursts not your LOW QUALITY TINY AMERICAN SAUSAGE I ONLY RESERVE MY MOUTHWHOLE FOR WHOLESOME FILLING LARGE FAT GERMAN BRATWURST

Well then, I take it you weren't part of these men.

Now, after reading that, I am a very sad teenager.

^ That's gay.

Also is it just me, or is shit like this better than most shit we have nowdays?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0PQ9lefqFI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYTmG9bkPRY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1qtuHEIGSU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1qtuHEIGSU

So iz ur face, lolololololol.

At least I HAVE A FACE!!! @#^754RF708E7W8GQTV0Atr%&($E^3r80q5r8&^$&^E(cfYGfy%R4765(%&^$%&$(&E6r4974&$&^$&($4r7&^$&^$&^R%hole

Lulz, all the lulz.

@Concrete: YOU'VE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE, MY GOOD MAN.